BioModels Workshop 2009: Day 2

Comments

Wasn't there an SBO term for a source/sink?
Should probably ask someone more knowledgeable than I am - but I've had a quick look at SBO and can't find anything with that name...
Ha, I googled 'annotate sink SBO' and got... this post.

(also, my question was originally just the first sentence of a comment. Which admittedly only had two sentences. But still...)
:) No worries. However, you saying you hadn't finished the comment makes me happier, as I was a little curious about the context of the question!
Heh. The context was... um, will html work here? let's see...

<blockquote><i>For instance, some terms such as "sink" are modeling artefacts and do not correspond to genes or proteins. Therefore, the user would normally wish to delete this from the search space to prevent any possible matches with actual biological species of a similar name.</i></blockquote>

So if I could ever find that thing I vaguely remember seeing at one of the talks from yesterday, you could actually tag the source/sink with aforementioned thingummy, and the program could know to exclude it from the biological search.

(not that the example isn't valid or anything; just was reminded.)

Good point. Indeed, if there were a term such as sink or source, it could be automatically excluded from Saint's (or any application's) search. Perhaps we could suggest it? Do you think knowing something is a sink would be useful for diagramming in SBGN? I would think so...
[this is good]
THAT'S IT!!!

http://www.sbgn.org/images/2/2a/Sbgn3.5-SourceSinkKitanoProposal.pdf

Man, where can I complain about this comment editor? 'this is good'? No HTML? Using the 'down' arrow key doesn't go to the end of the last line when the scrollbar is active, and in fact, neither does the *right* arrow key after you've used the down arrow? Grarr. </gripe level=2>
I agree - there are a number of truly basic features that should be available on vox but aren't. However, for other reasons (the privacy settings etc) I still find this the best compromise for what I would like to do.
Forgot to say that one can submit feedback, but I have to say most of the time I don't get any direct response from vox, which is a shame..
Only one slide, unfortunately, but I guess it means someone is thinking about it!
Hmm, from

http://sbgn.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/sbgn/ProcessDiagram/tags/Level1.0.0/sbgn_PD-level1.pdf

it looks like they assume source/sinks are the SBO term 291 ("empty set")

http://www.ebi.ac.uk/sbo/main/entry.do?sboId=SBO:0000291

However, I know particularly in the past, some modelers do indeed put in a particular fixed 'species' with an arbitrary concentration in as a source/sink (I know Jarnac requires something on both sides of a reaction equation, so you have to rely on this trick.) So I don't know if you could actually label a real species with SBO term 291, but if you could, that might be helpful for some models. It's at least a 'material entity'.
It's funny - I had looked at empty set briefly and missed the reference to source/sink, which as you say and the SBGN spec says, is the SBO "empty set".

In theory there is nothing in the SBML spec that says you cannot put empty set into a species' sboTerm attribute. (See table 6 in http://precedings.nature.com/documents/2715/version/1 .)

The appropriate branch of SBO for species is material entity, which is the parent of empty set. So yes, that is technically valid, and I would guess the correct thing to do (Adding to to-do list now!).
Which leads to the interesting reasoning rule "The concentration of the empty set does not change over time". This pleases me, for some reason.
Windows decided to reboot my machine without asking while I was typing so I lost a bunch of text. However, two issues with reaction balancing come to mind: If you have empty sources and sinks you can't balance the edges, I'm not a big fan of empty sources and sinks, I think they were put into SBML to make SBML compatible with Gepasi; secondly, other than metabolic pathways
I typed some comments about reaction balancing, VOX asked me to register then promptly lost my text. Also I noticed that the search is case sensitive, can't find sbml but will find SBML. Not very friendly.
i agree - this is why I moved to wordpress. :) you can find the copy of this post here: http://themindwobbles.wordpress.com/2009/03/29/biomodels-workshop-2009-day-2/ (for further reference!)
I was a bit mad at the time because I tried twice, the first time Windows decided to reboot without asking me and I lost the first session, then VOX lost my second session, then I gave up. I noticed your wordpress area, I'm looking forward to the blog as the week unfolds at CBO! I believe links to this will be going up on the CBO wiki.
I can understand your frustration... I'll try to put up good notes, to deserve the links from the wiki. :)

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